Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

Asking to be allowed to live on this earth, and that you may also live free of disease, strife or hardship... well that is akin to a murderer who kills a mans family, then expects to not only live in that mans house, but for that man to feed him and wash his feet. We killed jesus, gods only son, yet god allows us to live on earth. And you are naive enough to think that you, or ANYONE, is also deserving of living on this earth free of disease, strife and grief?

I would like to point out that there was disease, strife and grief before jesus' time too, therefore it is not a result of Jesus' death. And we, meaning those talking on this forum (or anyone living today, really), did not kill Jesus... unless anyone here was around in c. 33 A.D. ish? Claiming that we, those living right now, killed Jesus is like saying that we all had a part in, say the Holocaust, simply because another human being did it. Yes, we are all humans, but if one human, or even a group of humans does something, it does not mean that all other humans are guilty of the same crime.

I'm not taking a side in this debate... I just wanted to point those things out.

Pinthin wrote:

BA_Sadie. wrote:no no no...i don't know exactly how to explain it but i know god is there everyday there are miracles everyday that happen that there is no explanation for except god and explain how the world woulda been created if there wasn't a god. The big bang theory had to have something to start it what was that something GODDDDDD.

This kinda proves my point about religion (or at least christianity, i'm not sure if like, budhism has "miracles" or not).

I think people created religions because they couldn't come up with an answer for how the universe was created, or how that man survived something terrible. So you create a god and said he did it all. Personally the feeling that there could be a mystical man thats been around longer before anything even existed..is just a crock, but thats just me.

and another question, could you possibly even except that maybe your wrong? and other religions might be right? or like my theory above is correct? Like hinduism for ex. you know how they believe in after lifes? maybe we just become a flower when we die then a tiger..so on.haha To you guys that might sound like bologna but your theorys sound like bologna to me, this is just my opinon please dont hate me =[

and sorry if my hinduism incorrect, I dont know much about the religion but I think thats right..

aww i don't hate you lol. i think your wrong just like how you think im wron it doesn't matter though we can all have our opinions. I respect what you think but i don't agree with it.

TnF_T wrote:

BA_Sadie. wrote:yes he is hes always been there and hes not a natural process like big bang is he doesn't have to have something create him.

prove it

you can't prove that there is wind but you see the effects of it. Just like you can't necessarily prove there is a God but i see the effects of him every single day.

SourWorms wrote:since we are proof texting trackaholic...explain to me this

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Sucks, i guess your not going to heaven, Jesus said so!

you can't just take a verse like that out of context there bud.

*sg* wrote:

Asking to be allowed to live on this earth, and that you may also live free of disease, strife or hardship... well that is akin to a murderer who kills a mans family, then expects to not only live in that mans house, but for that man to feed him and wash his feet. We killed jesus, gods only son, yet god allows us to live on earth. And you are naive enough to think that you, or ANYONE, is also deserving of living on this earth free of disease, strife and grief?

I would like to point out that there was disease, strife and grief before jesus' time too, therefore it is not a result of Jesus' death. And we, meaning those talking on this forum (or anyone living today, really), did not kill Jesus... unless anyone here was around in c. 33 A.D. ish? Claiming that we, those living right now, killed Jesus is like saying that we all had a part in, say the Holocaust, simply because another human being did it. Yes, we are all humans, but if one human, or even a group of humans does something, it does not mean that all other humans are guilty of the same crime.

I'm not taking a side in this debate... I just wanted to point those things out.

and kinda offtopic: I really dont know much , if anything about the bible (I tried reading that and the koran once but I only made it 1/4 of the way.) okay this will sound really stupid.. but who "wrote" the bible?

gods many prophets.

*sg* wrote:

Asking to be allowed to live on this earth, and that you may also live free of disease, strife or hardship... well that is akin to a murderer who kills a mans family, then expects to not only live in that mans house, but for that man to feed him and wash his feet. We killed jesus, gods only son, yet god allows us to live on earth. And you are naive enough to think that you, or ANYONE, is also deserving of living on this earth free of disease, strife and grief?

I would like to point out that there was disease, strife and grief before jesus' time too, therefore it is not a result of Jesus' death. And we, meaning those talking on this forum (or anyone living today, really), did not kill Jesus... unless anyone here was around in c. 33 A.D. ish? Claiming that we, those living right now, killed Jesus is like saying that we all had a part in, say the Holocaust, simply because another human being did it. Yes, we are all humans, but if one human, or even a group of humans does something, it does not mean that all other humans are guilty of the same crime.

I'm not taking a side in this debate... I just wanted to point those things out.

No, by posting an argument, you are taking part of this debate. dont be spineless.

anyway.
WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE.
I never said all the strife was the result of jesus dying on the cross! HOW THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS CRAP. I CLEARLY said that strife was the result of MANKINDS SINS.
And jesus died for all our SINS, those in HIS past, in HIS present, and HIS future. Thats including us, he died for OUR sins, so that we might have a chance at living in heaven with him. so yes, we did kill him.

raptor jesus has all the answers

BA_Sadie. wrote:

TnF_T wrote:

BA_Sadie. wrote:yes he is hes always been there and hes not a natural process like big bang is he doesn't have to have something create him.

prove it

you can't prove that there is wind but you see the effects of it. Just like you can't necessarily prove there is a God but i see the effects of him every single day.

oh boy (sorry ba_sadie) But we can actually prove wind, I'll find a link for you.lol
What effects do you see of him everyday? Just because you woke up happy, or saw a flower blossom doesn’t mean that happened because of god. The flower blossomed because of various cycles which can be proved, you have no proof (except 'faith' ) that god was behind that flower blossoming.. haha that was a great example.

Trackaholic wrote:Woah, woah, WOAH. Stop it, hold your horses. I think my point went over your head, my bad though I guess I wasnt clear enough. I never said your "sob story" african child was deserving of his disease, that really WOULD be fucked up. I agree with you. Rather, what I said was that the sins of other men have brung about these diseases and the strife of the world. These children are merely victims of mankinds sin. Not of gods individualistic wrath. I also said, that the mere fact that we are all alive and not thrown into hellfire at this very moment is the GREATEST LOVE, COMPASSION AND MERCY god could offer to us all! A mercy only a divine being like god could impart upon this sinful world! but you ignored that whole section of my paragraph.

God is willing to force innocent children to suffer, because other men have sinned? Even though he easily has the power to stop the suffering, he still chooses that the child should suffer? I don't see how it can be anything but individualistic wrath, if gods power is infinite, and he has control over every single action, how can curing a child of AIDS be out of his reach?

The thing is laggy, your assuming we all deserve to live, and that god operates under some sort of "innocent until proven guilty after death" modus operandi. You deserve to die, laggy, and go to hell. So do I, so does EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH. So did the saints, so did the heathens, so did every man who ever walked upon this earth and partook of its sinfulness. Do you deny this laggy? do you feel that you, or maybe others, are worthy of everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven. That would be the supreme naivete!

I deserve to die? Why? Why do I deserve eternal torture? You're dam right I deny it!! I don't think my friends deserve to die, I don't think my family deserves to die, I don't think you or anyone else on this forums deserves to die. What have I done?

You deserve to die, laggy, and go to hell. So do I, so does everyone on this earth....

But yet, god does not smite us, and send us all to hell.

why?

Divine mercy and love, thats why.

That kind of attitude makes me sick. Well, not sick, but sad. I love life, and I love humans. Lots of people I know have lived moral lives. Good, decent people. My mates, my family. My grandpa wasn't religious, and he was a great man. He was kind, funny, always made me happy to be around. My friends are all great people, I love them and respect them all. My Dad is out here in the middle of the desert, away from all his family save my sister, working so that he can support us. He's a fucking hero. Nothing would even make me think for a second that these people are bad people. It's why I'm so frustrated by religion. It tells me that all my family, my friends, are pieces of utterly worthless trash, only being allowed to live because they might be forgiven by this super natural being. Evil, posionous bullshit.

PINTHIN:
okay maybe that wasn't a good example and you don't need to find links i figured that would happen anyways..
i see effects with miracles that there is no other explanation for.

Pinthin wrote:

*sg* wrote:

Asking to be allowed to live on this earth, and that you may also live free of disease, strife or hardship... well that is akin to a murderer who kills a mans family, then expects to not only live in that mans house, but for that man to feed him and wash his feet. We killed jesus, gods only son, yet god allows us to live on earth. And you are naive enough to think that you, or ANYONE, is also deserving of living on this earth free of disease, strife and grief?

I would like to point out that there was disease, strife and grief before jesus' time too, therefore it is not a result of Jesus' death. And we, meaning those talking on this forum (or anyone living today, really), did not kill Jesus... unless anyone here was around in c. 33 A.D. ish? Claiming that we, those living right now, killed Jesus is like saying that we all had a part in, say the Holocaust, simply because another human being did it. Yes, we are all humans, but if one human, or even a group of humans does something, it does not mean that all other humans are guilty of the same crime.

I'm not taking a side in this debate... I just wanted to point those things out.

and kinda offtopic: I really dont know much , if anything about the bible (I tried reading that and the koran once but I only made it 1/4 of the way.) okay this will sound really stupid.. but who "wrote" the bible?

If you "agree" with SG, just read my response.

anyway, like sadie said by gods prophets, and by the disciples of jesus. When we say St. John 3:16, it was a verse written by saint john. simple.

Now, let me warn you like I did earlier pinthin. dont take the bible as the sole word and law and GUIDE of everything christians do. Because guess what? THE CHURCH CAME BEFORE THE BIBLE, and therefore the church is the authority of the christians. But the misguided have fallen to the belief that they nee donly the bible as there guide, nothing could be further from the truth. The church came first. then the bible.
And as such, the church is the only way to reach heaven. Through baptism, communion, confession. One does not obtain heaven by simply reading the bible and professing faith of the bible.

thelagwagon wrote:

Trackaholic wrote:Woah, woah, WOAH. Stop it, hold your horses. I think my point went over your head, my bad though I guess I wasnt clear enough. I never said your "sob story" african child was deserving of his disease, that really WOULD be fucked up. I agree with you. Rather, what I said was that the sins of other men have brung about these diseases and the strife of the world. These children are merely victims of mankinds sin. Not of gods individualistic wrath. I also said, that the mere fact that we are all alive and not thrown into hellfire at this very moment is the GREATEST LOVE, COMPASSION AND MERCY god could offer to us all! A mercy only a divine being like god could impart upon this sinful world! but you ignored that whole section of my paragraph.

God is willing to force innocent children to suffer, because other men have sinned? Even though he easily has the power to stop the suffering, he still chooses that the child should suffer? I don't see how it can be anything but individualistic wrath, if gods power is infinite, and he has control over every single action, how can curing a child of AIDS be out of his reach?

The thing is laggy, your assuming we all deserve to live, and that god operates under some sort of "innocent until proven guilty after death" modus operandi. You deserve to die, laggy, and go to hell. So do I, so does EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH. So did the saints, so did the heathens, so did every man who ever walked upon this earth and partook of its sinfulness. Do you deny this laggy? do you feel that you, or maybe others, are worthy of everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven. That would be the supreme naivete!

I deserve to die? Why? Why do I deserve eternal torture? You're dam right I deny it!! I don't think my friends deserve to die, I don't think my family deserves to die, I don't think you or anyone else on this forums deserves to die. What have I done?

You deserve to die, laggy, and go to hell. So do I, so does everyone on this earth....

But yet, god does not smite us, and send us all to hell.

why?

Divine mercy and love, thats why.

That kind of attitude makes me sick. Well, not sick, but sad. I love life, and I love humans. Lots of people I know have lived moral lives. Good, decent people. My mates, my family. My grandpa wasn't religious, and he was a great man. He was kind, funny, always made me happy to be around. My friends are all great people, I love them and respect them all. My Dad is out here in the middle of the desert, away from all his family save my sister, working so that he can support us. He's a fucking hero. Nothing would even make me think for a second that these people are bad people. It's why I'm so frustrated by religion. It tells me that all my family, my friends, are pieces of utterly worthless trash, only being allowed to live because they might be forgiven by this super natural being. Evil, posionous bullshit.

tracko deserves it too we all do cuz none of us are good enough and we all sin we aren't perfect like god is we all deserve to die just as bad as he did..he did nothing wrong ever and he got nailed to a cross yet we who sin each and everyday just have to believe and go to heaven we don't deserve that.

BA_Sadie. wrote:PINTHIN:
okay maybe that wasn't a good example and you don't need to find links i figured that would happen anyways..
i see effects with miracles that there is no other explanation for.

fair enough.

But that brings us back to my quote' about why humans created a god because they couldn't answer things such as miracles,evolution, or the creation of the universe. God was an easy answer to all their questions, because obviously science wasnt too big back in the day.

I wish my bro wasnt a track camp so I could quote something he said that I thought was really...deep. haha

<--- thats what this whole thread makes me wanna do.

Trackaholic wrote:

Pinthin wrote:

*sg* wrote:

Asking to be allowed to live on this earth, and that you may also live free of disease, strife or hardship... well that is akin to a murderer who kills a mans family, then expects to not only live in that mans house, but for that man to feed him and wash his feet. We killed jesus, gods only son, yet god allows us to live on earth. And you are naive enough to think that you, or ANYONE, is also deserving of living on this earth free of disease, strife and grief?

I would like to point out that there was disease, strife and grief before jesus' time too, therefore it is not a result of Jesus' death. And we, meaning those talking on this forum (or anyone living today, really), did not kill Jesus... unless anyone here was around in c. 33 A.D. ish? Claiming that we, those living right now, killed Jesus is like saying that we all had a part in, say the Holocaust, simply because another human being did it. Yes, we are all humans, but if one human, or even a group of humans does something, it does not mean that all other humans are guilty of the same crime.

I'm not taking a side in this debate... I just wanted to point those things out.

and kinda offtopic: I really dont know much , if anything about the bible (I tried reading that and the koran once but I only made it 1/4 of the way.) okay this will sound really stupid.. but who "wrote" the bible?

If you "agree" with SG, just read my response.

anyway, like sadie said by gods prophets, and by the disciples of jesus. When we say St. John 3:16, it was a verse written by saint john. simple.

Now, let me warn you like I did earlier pinthin. dont take the bible as the sole word and law and GUIDE of everything christians do. Because guess what? THE CHURCH CAME BEFORE THE BIBLE, and therefore the church is the authority of the christians. But the misguided have fallen to the belief that they nee donly the bible as there guide, nothing could be further from the truth. The church came first. then the bible.
And as such, the church is the only way to reach heaven. Through baptism, communion, confession. One does not obtain heaven by simply reading the bible and professing faith of the bible.

But I thought your fathers,pastors etc.. taught out of the bible??

BA_Sadie. wrote:
tracko deserves it too we all do cuz none of us are good enough and we all sin we aren't perfect like god is we all deserve to die just as bad as he did..he did nothing wrong ever and he got nailed to a cross yet we who sin each and everyday just have to believe and go to heaven we don't deserve that.

I'm not perfect, so does that mean I have to die and be tortured for eternity? What specific action have I done to deserve it?

In response to that I am not versed in the subject of biology and the cosmos.

I defy you to find something that you can outsmart me with and find me something that cannot be explained with simple science. I guarantee I am a lot more educated in this subject than you are or could hope to be.

And Gange? Are you serious? That guy is speaking out of his ass using god to make his own theories.

A quote from the jacket of his book: "Is life just the outcome of random natural processes?" asks Robert Gange. Consider, for example, our sun. Although 93 million miles distant, its 12,000°F surface temperature radiates precisely the correct amount of energy in just the right color distribution to avoid atmospheric gases that would interfere with its reaching the earth's surface. The comparatively stable temperatures we enjoy are determined by the difference between the amount of heat the earth absorbs and that which its shifting cloud cover returns to space. How was that balance achieved? And lest we take our privileged environment for granted, consider that the moon, only 239,000 miles away, has temperature changes of over 850°F each lunar day!"

Ok well I would like to ask him this, how about the millions of years from the start of the earth? Earth was NOT created the way we see it now. It went through hundreds of millions of years of molten surfaces and hostile conditions not suitable for life. If God created the earth then explain to me why it was not created exactly as we see it now.

And to those of you angry at me for "proof-texting," I was just trying to prove a point. The Bible is almost entirely false anyway and is just a collection of cool fables.

And your right, I don't know for a fact that the Big Bang happened, I am 99% sure it happened because there is a good bit of evidence to support my assumption.

Unfortunately for you hardcore christians, there is 0 evidence supporting a God-created universe or world.

Pinthin wrote:

BA_Sadie. wrote:PINTHIN:
okay maybe that wasn't a good example and you don't need to find links i figured that would happen anyways..
i see effects with miracles that there is no other explanation for.

fair enough.

But that brings us back to my quote' about why humans created a god because they couldn't answer things such as miracles,evolution, or the creation of the universe. God was an easy answer to all their questions, because obviously science wasnt too big back in the day.

I wish my bro wasnt a track camp so I could quote something he said that I thought was really...deep. haha

<--- thats what this whole thread makes me wanna do.

don't you have faith in anything?

thelagwagon wrote:

BA_Sadie. wrote:
tracko deserves it too we all do cuz none of us are good enough and we all sin we aren't perfect like god is we all deserve to die just as bad as he did..he did nothing wrong ever and he got nailed to a cross yet we who sin each and everyday just have to believe and go to heaven we don't deserve that.

I'm not perfect, so does that mean I have to die and be tortured for eternity? What specific action have I done to deserve it?

you sin.

No, by posting an argument, you are taking part of this debate. dont be spineless.

1st- there is a difference between taking part and taking side... I don't really know or care if God exists or not... yes I am taking part by posting, no I am not taking a side...except I guess that the next part of this post is sort of taking a side...but the first one was not!

2nd- I don't think it matters much whether God exists or not. Regardless of religion, everyone has morals and a basic idea of right and wrong... you don't need to be religious to have that. Therefore, I think it matters more that you are a good person and do the right things... basically avoid hurting other people.

3rd- This is just interesting and it sort of applies to this topic... according to either Kant or Descartes... can't remember which.... : God is either
1. all powerful, but not all good b/c if God was all powerful, and all god, there would be no evil
2. all good, but not all powerful Since there is evil, an all good God could not be all powerful
3. neither all powerful nor all good

I realize there are some gaps in this philosophy, but I thought it was interesting

Catholics are supposed to be compassionate and respectful of other ideals and beliefs. That is what I have always been taught at least. Unfortunately trackoholic calls me an idiot for my beliefs.

Something seems ironic. It appears as though the bleeding-heart Catholic is not what he seems to be.

BA_Sadie. wrote:

you sin.

What sin have I committed, that makes me deserve death?

you have done nothing to deserve to go to heaven only by God's good grace does he allow you in, for all have fallen short of the glory of God the Bible says

That seems like a pretty evil god if you ask me. I though god loved us uncoditionally, i guess i was wrong

how is he evil if he allows you to come with him in heaven even if you dont deserve it...