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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by Phuckduck Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:51 am

    Suck on this silly creationists

    Losing Sight of ProgressHow blind salamanders make nonsense of creationists' claims.

    By Christopher Hitchens
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2008, at 11:34 AM ET

    It is extremely seldom that one has the opportunity to think a new thought about a familiar subject, let alone an original thought on a contested subject, so when I had a moment of eureka a few nights ago, my very first instinct was to distrust my very first instinct. To phrase it briefly, I was watching the astonishing TV series Planet Earth (which, by the way, contains photography of the natural world of a sort that redefines the art) and had come to the segment that deals with life underground. The subterranean caverns and rivers of our world are one of the last unexplored frontiers, and the sheer extent of the discoveries, in Mexico and Indonesia particularly, is quite enough to stagger the mind. Various creatures were found doing their thing far away from the light, and as they were caught by the camera, I noticed—in particular of the salamanders—that they had typical faces. In other words, they had mouths and muzzles and eyes arranged in the same way as most animals. Except that the eyes were denoted only by little concavities or indentations. Even as I was grasping the implications of this, the fine voice of Sir David Attenborough was telling me how many millions of years it had taken for these denizens of the underworld to lose the eyes they had once possessed.
    If you follow the continuing argument between the advocates of Darwin's natural selection theory and the partisans of creationism or "intelligent design," you will instantly see what I am driving at. The creationists (to give them their proper name and to deny them their annoying annexation of the word intelligent) invariably speak of the eye in hushed tones. How, they demand to know, can such a sophisticated organ have gone through clumsy evolutionary stages in order to reach its current magnificence and versatility? The problem was best phrased by Darwin himself, in his essay "Organs of Extreme Perfection and Complication":

    To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.
    His defenders, such as Michael Shermer in his excellent book Why Darwin Matters, draw upon post-Darwinian scientific advances. They do not rely on what might be loosely called "blind chance":

    Evolution also posits that modern organisms should show a variety of structures from simple to complex, reflecting an evolutionary history rather than an instantaneous creation. The human eye, for example, is the result of a long and complex pathway that goes back hundreds of millions of years. Initially a simple eyespot with a handful of light-sensitive cells that provided information to the organism about an important source of the light …
    Hold it right there, says Ann Coulter in her ridiculous book Godless: The Church of Liberalism. "The interesting question is not: How did a primitive eye become a complex eye? The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"
    The salamanders of Planet Earthappear to this layman to furnish a possibly devastating answer to that question. Humans are almost programmed to think in terms of progress and of gradual yet upward curves, even when confronted with evidence that the past includes as many great dyings out of species as it does examples of the burgeoning of them. Thus even Shermer subconsciously talks of a "pathway" that implicitly stretches ahead. But what of the creatures who turned around and headed back in the opposite direction, from complex to primitive in point of eyesight, and ended up losing even the eyes they did have?
    Whoever benefits from this inquiry, it cannot possibly be Coulter or her patrons at the creationist Discovery Institute. The most they can do is to intone that "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." Whereas the likelihood that the post-ocular blindness of underground salamanders is another aspect of evolution by natural selection seems, when you think about it at all, so overwhelmingly probable as to constitute a near certainty. I wrote to professor Richard Dawkins to ask if I had stumbled on the outlines of a point, and he replied as follows:

    Vestigial eyes, for example, are clear evidence that these cave salamanders must have had ancestors who were different from them—had eyes, in this case. That is evolution. Why on earth would God create a salamander with vestiges of eyes? If he wanted to create blind salamanders, why not just create blind salamanders? Why give them dummy eyes that don't work and that look as though they were inherited from sighted ancestors? Maybe your point is a little different from this, in which case I don't think I have seen it written down before.
    I recommend for further reading the chapter on eyes and the many different ways in which they are formed that is contained in Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable; also "The Blind Cave Fish's Tale" in his Chaucerian collectionThe Ancestor's Tale. I am not myself able to add anything about the formation of light cells, eyespots, and lenses, but I do think that there is a dialectical usefulness to considering the conventional arguments in reverse, as it were. For example, to the old theistic question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" we can now counterpose the findings of professor Lawrence Krauss and others, about the foreseeable heat death of the universe, the Hubble "red shift" that shows the universe's rate of explosive expansion actually increasing, and the not-so-far-off collision of our own galaxy with Andromeda, already loomingly visible in the night sky. So, the question can and must be rephrased: "Why will our brief 'something' so soon be replaced with nothing?" It's only once we shake our own innate belief in linear progression and consider the many recessions we have undergone and will undergo that we can grasp the gross stupidity of those who repose their faith in divine providence and godly design.
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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by BagoXC25 Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:08 pm

    What's your point? Salamanders adapted to their environment, great. That REALLY proves how they came to be from floating hydrogen oxygen and carbon atoms.
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    Post by Phuckduck Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:08 pm

    It disproves creationism. And proves evolution. Why would god create a salamander with vestiges of eyes?
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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by Pinthin Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:15 pm

    ^ because everyone likes a blind salamander?? haha

    I'm done actually arguing with this =/
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    Post by AudienceOfOne Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:15 pm

    SourWorms wrote:It disproves creationism. And proves evolution. Why would god create a salamander with vestiges of eyes?

    if it really proved creationism wrong, why is it in just a little article you found?
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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by Running With Scissors Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:07 pm

    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Jesus-motivational-poster
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    Post by P2 Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:58 pm

    you guys still want proof? youve gotta be kidding! evolution is a joke. we are what we are because of God. how did God create us when nothing was there? Because he isnt part of this dimension. He is most definetly infinite.

    God TRULY was here before anything.
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    Post by Adonai Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:44 pm

    P2 wrote:you guys still want proof? youve gotta be kidding! evolution is a joke. we are what we are because of God. how did God create us when nothing was there? Because he isnt part of this dimension. He is most definetly infinite.

    God TRULY was here before anything.

    It's because of idiots like you that i will never post on this forum again. Bye.
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    Post by BagoXC25 Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:47 pm

    Sad to see you leave moon
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    Post by Phuckduck Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:16 pm

    P2 wrote:you guys still want proof? youve gotta be kidding! evolution is a joke. we are what we are because of God. how did God create us when nothing was there? Because he isnt part of this dimension. He is most definetly infinite.

    God TRULY was here before anything.


    lol
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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by *sg* Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:17 pm

    P2 wrote:you guys still want proof? youve gotta be kidding! evolution is a joke. we are what we are because of God. how did God create us when nothing was there? Because he isnt part of this dimension. He is most definetly infinite.

    God TRULY was here before anything.

    Ok, so if you want to believe that God is behind all existence, ok, that's fine. But there is PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of evolution so that when you use your God-given brain you can make the connections and see that the theory of evolution is extremely likely. so go ahead and use God to answer the questions you don't know the answer to... like "where did all this matter come from?" "gee, I wonder what caused the Big Bang?" But as for evolution, that topic is pretty well covered by physical evidence and logic.

    And in the quote you asked if we wanted proof that evolution is a joke...well, you didn't offer any. You only made statements based on your faith in God.
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    Evolution vs. Intelligent Design - Page 39 Empty Re: Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

    Post by AudienceOfOne Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:10 pm

    *sg* wrote:
    P2 wrote:you guys still want proof? youve gotta be kidding! evolution is a joke. we are what we are because of God. how did God create us when nothing was there? Because he isnt part of this dimension. He is most definetly infinite.

    God TRULY was here before anything.

    Ok, so if you want to believe that God is behind all existence, ok, that's fine. But there is PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of evolution so that when you use your God-given brain you can make the connections and see that the theory of evolution is extremely likely. so go ahead and use God to answer the questions you don't know the answer to... like "where did all this matter come from?" "gee, I wonder what caused the Big Bang?" But as for evolution, that topic is pretty well covered by physical evidence and logic.

    And in the quote you asked if we wanted proof that evolution is a joke...well, you didn't offer any. You only made statements based on your faith in God.
    again, science does not support evolution over creation.
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    Post by Phuckduck Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:01 pm

    Yes it does, science does not support creation in any way unfortunately. There is absolutely no reputable scientific evidence of intelligent design while there is a myriad of evidence in support of evolution.
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    Post by whenhen Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:02 pm

    AudienceOfOne wrote:
    again, science does not support evolution over creation.
    Sorry if this was already mentioned; I only read 7 pages of this
    debate, but science overwhelmingly favors evolution over creationism.
    Every branch of biology has roots in this theory, as well as organic
    chemistry, and computational biology. Without evolution, such things
    like gene therapy would not have been possible, since the bacteria must
    evolve the traits.
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    Post by Phuckduck Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:09 pm

    oh pwnt
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    Post by AudienceOfOne Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:22 pm

    SourWorms wrote:Yes it does, science does not support creation in any way unfortunately. There is absolutely no reputable scientific evidence of intelligent design while there is a myriad of evidence in support of evolution.
    and all of that evidence is arguable. there is nothing you could say here that can't be refuted by a good scientist.
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    Post by Phuckduck Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:47 pm

    AudienceOfOne wrote:
    SourWorms wrote:Yes it does, science does not support creation in any way unfortunately. There is absolutely no reputable scientific evidence of intelligent design while there is a myriad of evidence in support of evolution.
    and all of that evidence is arguable. there is nothing you could say here that can't be refuted by a good scientist.

    define a good scientist. because i think we can all agree eintstein was a good scientist and no one has refuted him thus far
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    Post by AudienceOfOne Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:35 pm

    SourWorms wrote:
    AudienceOfOne wrote:
    SourWorms wrote:Yes it does, science does not support creation in any way unfortunately. There is absolutely no reputable scientific evidence of intelligent design while there is a myriad of evidence in support of evolution.
    and all of that evidence is arguable. there is nothing you could say here that can't be refuted by a good scientist.

    define a good scientist. because i think we can all agree eintstein was a good scientist and no one has refuted him thus far
    no, but a good scientist would be able to poke holes in all of your arguments.
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    Post by Phuckduck Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:45 pm

    No, a good scientist believes in facts and would therefore agree with me. Only idiotic scientists refute evolution
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    Post by whenhen Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:51 pm

    AudienceOfOne wrote:
    SourWorms wrote:
    AudienceOfOne wrote:
    SourWorms wrote:Yes it does, science does not support creation in any way unfortunately. There is absolutely no reputable scientific evidence of intelligent design while there is a myriad of evidence in support of evolution.
    and all of that evidence is arguable. there is nothing you could say here that can't be refuted by a good scientist.

    define a good scientist. because i think we can all agree eintstein was a good scientist and no one has refuted him thus far
    no, but a good scientist would be able to poke holes in all of your arguments.
    So, 99% of scientists in fields where evolution is relevant are bad since they accept evolution?

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